An Interview With Constance Debré, France’s Literary Provocateur

After we converse over video name Constance Debré is in Paris, in an ethereal house with excessive, corniced ceilings – “however it’s not my place.” She has just lately returned from a stint in New York, then LA; she cherished LA specifically, and apologises early on for her English. I inform her that, to me, she appears kind of fluent-perfect, however as I come to understand, Debré is invested within the energy and precision of language, so ‘kind of’ is insufficient for her functions. She considers magnificence, as an illustration, crucial, however as she clarifies, “To me, magnificence isn’t fairly. It’s one thing which might, not assist, however indulge, violence, struggling, cruelty, all the things.”

Debré is already a sensation in her native France, the place her notoriety could stem partly from perceptions round her ‘esteemed’ household. “I’m very sorry to say it,” she says, “however due to my identify – as a result of my grandfather was once a first-rate minister like 50 years in the past – they get enthusiastic about it.” This month sees the UK publication of her 2020 novel, Love Me Tender, translated by Holly James. A startling, unsentimental and really transferring account of the brutal custody battle over her then eight-year-old son – the ‘I’ of the novel and Debré could be handled as interchangeable – it affords a model of motherhood outdoors of society’s prescribed beliefs. 

Love Me Tender is hanging for its ambiguity. The swaggering, assured confidence of its ‘I’ voice, that sits brilliantly and humanly, in opposition to the truth that its place, on love and different issues, is consistently being revised. In life, Debré equally has each a whole conviction in her work and opinions, and a provocative, outlaw sensibility, but in addition the mental curiosity to maintain modifying and revising at the same time as she is speaking. It may be laborious to maintain her and the novel separate in your thoughts. In the direction of the top of our dialog I discover myself asking, as if turning the final web page of Love Me Tender and searching for extra info, “Do you see your son now?”

Holly Connolly: I’m interested by the best way different writers could have formed you, specifically Guillaume Dustan. I may really feel his affect in that reiteration of the ‘I’ and the creation of self by means of aesthetic and there are some biographical parallels too; he was an administrative choose from a revered household earlier than he started writing.

Constance Debré: The very first thing is that my style in literature and the books I learn are extra classical than up to date, and it’s regular to match my writing to different up to date writers, and naturally they matter, however not that a lot. Besides most likely for Dustan, you might be proper, particularly for Love Me Tender, as a result of I used to be studying him rather a lot right now.

However I believe one of many solutions, when it comes to inspiration, isn’t in different books however is in regulation, and in my authorized previous. Particularly in French case regulation, which may be very completely different from British regulation or US regulation, in that it is vitally a lot about language, a few very exact, easy, clear and efficient use of language. To me, it is so lovely. And so I’ve this quite simple, clear, chilly, direct fashion of writing.

HC: It may be tempting to think about your writing as a clear break out of your previous as a lawyer, whereas in actuality that’s maybe not the case – there’s plenty of overlap. 

CD: Completely. One other factor is, there’s the authorized fashion of writing, and of utilizing language, however there’s additionally the truth that I was a defence lawyer. In that function, you need to seize the choose to get a choice, and phrases need to be efficient and never fairly as a result of it’s all about violence, one thing is occurring right here. Language is an occasion, it has to grow to be an act. 

I actually detest this French bourgeois means of constructing books, displaying at each web page that the author has learn Roland Barthes and [Baruch] Spinoza, which all of us have completed, after all, however we do not have to indicate it. One of many causes I like books and literature is as a result of [of] language – it’s the factor all of us have. 

HC: How simple did you discover it to write down a novel – can I name it a novel? – that pulls so carefully from very painful components of your life? 

CD: Sure, it’s a novel. I imply, all the things is true, and my life is the fabric of it, however it’s not about my life, in a means, as a result of I needed to construct a personality, and I had sure concepts in regards to the characters. For sure writers, [when] writing within the first individual and utilizing their lives, the aim is to discover a fact about what occurred of their lives or the reality about themselves, which is completely not what I’m interested by. The query of identification is under no circumstances one thing I’m interested by. 

“One of many causes I like books and literature is as a result of [of] language – it’s the factor all of us have” – Constance Debré

HC: Some individuals have framed Love Me Tender as this queer identification novel, which I used to be stunned by – I didn’t actually learn that in it. 

CD: You are completely proper. The queer factor is a big misunderstanding of my e-book. I imply, I’m a lesbian, and it is within the e-book, there’s no query about it, however it’s not about that. However it’s the very first thing individuals see, so they only say ‘the character is a homosexual girl, so it’s about that, it’s about identification and queer identification.’ Effectively, no truly. I had in thoughts, it’s an outdated means of seeing issues, the Greek one, the place you’ve gotten, say, Ulysses, simply this man who’s a hero as a result of he’s defying the gods and so he has trials on a regular basis, however it’s due to the trials that he’s a hero. When you see your personal life this fashion, or as an illustration, what occurs in Love Me Tender, as trials despatched by the gods – properly, I would not say it’s enjoyable however it has its personal type of magnificence. There’s a [Charles] Bukowski quote: ‘what issues most is how properly you stroll by means of the fireplace.’ I like that, and we will use it for all the things in life. 

HC: I watched a video of a chat you gave with Eileen Myles, and also you had a superb line: ‘I don’t like to write down about emotions, I just like the reader to really feel the emotions.’ Are you able to discuss creating literature that’s experiential?

CD: I don’t like to speak an excessive amount of about emotions. I don’t deny them in any respect, however particularly in books I believe it may be very embarrassing. Greater than that, whenever you discuss an excessive amount of about emotions they disappear. I believe artwork basically, and books specifically, are there to make us really feel issues. 

I don’t need individuals who learn my work to be satisfied that the character or myself is nice. I need them to be taken by the e-book and typically moved, typically indignant, shocked and embarrassed. That is what I need once I learn a e-book, or watch a film, and preserve serious about it the day after, and that is the signal that it’s attention-grabbing. I need my e-book to do one thing to individuals, so it will be ineffective to say ‘I’m unhappy’ or ‘I do love my little one.’ Emotions could make for very dangerous literature. 

HC: I don’t assume I’ve learn a greater account of the concern of a prescriptive mannequin of motherhood than Love Me Tender. I cherished this half: ‘I used to be going to do it my means, with out the absurdity that comes with being a lady, the obscenity that comes with being a mom.’ It jogged my memory of Marguerite Duras’ writing on moms too. 

CD: This was one in all my concepts earlier than the e-book. All of us have a mom, and many individuals have been a mom, and in literature it doesn’t exist. Or if it does, it’s simply so boring. You possibly can perhaps say, ‘Effectively it’s not at all times simple …’ However that was not likely my level. I needed to take a look at one other means of being a mom, one other means of loving a toddler. There was some defying angle in that, sure. 

I believe it’s very unusual to see that after you grow to be a mom, there are lots of issues you could possibly have escaped earlier than that, from so known as heteronormativity, that immediately are there. It’s very humorous to see all these younger mother and father appearing as mother and father, the ladies; two months in the past she was only a lady after which immediately it’s, ‘Oh! I’m a mum!’ What are you pretending to be? These issues are simply ugly and ridiculous and filled with lies, and filled with violence as properly. And we all know {that a} lie produces violence and that households are filled with violence. So what are all these individuals mendacity about, why are they mendacity? As a result of, after all, there’s a lot anxiousness. However perhaps we will discuss it clearly, as a result of there’s additionally one thing true – there’s additionally love. 

“I don’t like to speak an excessive amount of about emotions. I don’t deny them in any respect, however particularly in books I believe it may be very embarrassing” – Constance Debré

HC: Being a father or mother to Paul is offered as one thing which can be releasing. You write: ‘I’d by no means have grow to be a lesbian if I hadn’t been his mom first.’

CD: Love basically, romantic love too, is one thing that may diminish us, it might probably put limits on what we need to be and what we need to do, after which we’re indignant on the different individual. However it might probably additionally give us a lot power. Having a toddler … you can not lie. For those who hear the false tone of your voice whenever you discuss to your son, and resolve then to inform the reality, immediately you can not mislead your self about many issues. You come to actually love the reality and to imagine in it.

There’s additionally an important pleasure in speaking to a toddler, as a result of in some unspecified time in the future this little animal begins to speak and hear after which you need to current the world to him, as a result of he doesn’t know something. It’s a must to clarify all the things and you then realise that you’ve got an opinion on the world. It’s very thrilling. 

Love Me Tender by Constance Debré is out within the UK now.